The 2026-27 Daniel Pearl Memorial Lecture

00:00:05:00 - 00:00:10:19

Unknown

right. Good afternoon and welcome. I'm Kal Raustiala director of the UCLA Burkle Center for International Relations.

00:00:10:22 - 00:00:38:22

Unknown

And it's my honor to welcome you to this year's Daniel Pearl Memorial Lecture. We come together today, as we do every year, to honor the life and the work of the late Daniel Pearl. Almost 25 years ago, Daniel was brutally murdered in Pakistan while working as a reporter for the Wall Street Journal. As a foreign correspondent, in fact, of The Wall Street Journal, a free and active press has been an essential part of our democracy since our founding.

00:00:39:00 - 00:01:02:09

Unknown

Daniel believed in those principles, and he gave his life in the pursuit of bringing that outside world to all of us. Today we remember his work, and we honor his legacy. For this year's Daniel Pearl lecture, we're fortunate to have as our guest, the journalist Evan Gershwin. I'll introduce them properly in a moment. But first, let me explain a little bit about how this event will unfold.

00:01:02:09 - 00:01:23:02

Unknown

I know many of you have been here before, but I just want to run through the run up show. So we'll begin with some brief remarks of welcome from the Chancellor of UCLA, William Frank, and his wife and associate Felicia. Now they will be doing that by video. They were unfortunately out of town, could not be here, but very much wanted to be a part of this event.

00:01:23:06 - 00:01:51:06

Unknown

So we'll begin with those. When they finish, we'll hear next. There's a lot of preliminaries we'll hear next from Dan Gold, the Gilbert Foundation chair and executive director of UCLA. Hello. Following Dan Judea Pearl, Daniel's father, one of our esteemed colleagues here at UCLA, will come up and give a few remarks, a personal remembrance. Following that, I will come back and I'll introduce Evan properly.

00:01:51:06 - 00:02:08:06

Unknown

Then he and I will sit in those two chairs, have a conversation, talk about his new book, which I urge you to not only read, but also to buy, which is outside signed topics by of it. So we'll talk a bit about that and about some broader issues. And then time permitting, we'll open it up to questions from all of you.

00:02:08:11 - 00:02:34:09

Unknown

We will have at least one, if not two hand-held mikes. So when we get to the Q&A portion, please wait to be called on. You will not get to hold the mic. My team will hold the mic, you will give a question and I just want to reinforce. There is only one Daniel Pearl lecturer today and it's so please just make a short, sweet question and he will answer it.

00:02:34:11 - 00:02:38:14

Unknown

Okay, so with that let's go ahead and start.

00:02:38:16 - 00:03:15:17

Unknown

Good afternoon. More than two decades after Daniel Pearl's murder, his life continues to call us to something better, to remain curious about one another, to listen across differences, and to seek understanding even when the world around us makes that difficult. This is part of what makes this annual lecture so meaningful. It keeps Daniel's memory alive while bringing us together to shine a light on the challenges facing journalism and complex questions surrounding international affairs and the pursuit of truth.

00:03:15:19 - 00:03:47:22

Unknown

This year, Evan Gershkovich carries that conversation forward. Like Daniel, he has approached journalism with a determination to understand people and places firsthand and to bear witness to what he encounters, even when doing so comes at great personal cost. We are especially grateful to do there. Pearl Daniels father and a beloved member of our UCLA faculty, and we honor the memory of his late wife, Ruth.

00:03:48:00 - 00:04:20:08

Unknown

Their resilience in the face of unimaginable loss has helped turn Daniel's legacy into an enduring commitment to dialog and understanding. UCLA is a fitting home for this lecture. At Great universities. Differences are processed through reason and dialog and never through hate or violence. This lecture lives out that commitment. My wife, Alicia, and I wish we could be with you in person.

00:04:20:10 - 00:04:28:01

Unknown

We hope today's lecture inspires knowledge and connection.

00:04:28:03 - 00:04:57:11

Unknown

It is a profound honor for UCLA to host the Daniel Pearl Memorial Lecture and help keep Daniel's memory alive for generations to come. And I want to first thank Daniel's father, the beloved and renowned Professor Judea Pearl. Judea has taught me that feeling joy is not a betrayal of bearing witness to the suffering of our loved ones. I grew up knowing from my memories as a toddler that history is not abstract.

00:04:57:15 - 00:05:20:10

Unknown

Hatred has vile consequences and so does silence. I am the daughter of a Holocaust survivor. My father was only 15 when the Nazis took him to the concentration camps. He was branded with the tattoo that began with a B for Birkenau and separated from my grandparents, who were murdered in Auschwitz. Our family was destroyed, and my father endured five years of torture and starvation.

00:05:20:12 - 00:05:44:06

Unknown

The scars never left him, nor will they leave our family. My father, Sigmund Nahl, wrote that he survived in order to tell his story. He survived to bear witness. He taught his children, my brother and I, that our duty is never to be silent in the face of atrocity. He also taught us to value humanity and to value kindness.

00:05:44:08 - 00:06:11:05

Unknown

Daniel Pearl devoted his life to telling the stories of others. He was murdered because he was a journalist and because he was Jewish, has shared the Daniel's life personified joy, empathy, and the courageous pursuit of truth. This lecture is part of Daniel's legacy, made possible through the Daniel Pearl Foundation and the extraordinary vision of his parents, Judea and the late Ruth Pearl.

00:06:11:07 - 00:06:45:02

Unknown

This year, we welcome Wall Street Journal correspondent Evan Gershkovich whose imprisonment in Russia reminds us why we must defend both a free press and the journalists who risked their own freedom for it. It is a rare gift that the Pearl family has bestowed on their UCLA community. The opportunity not only to bear witness, but also to transform that into action by teaching generations of students, teaching them to choose curiosity over prejudice, evidence over lies, and humanity over hate.

00:06:45:07 - 00:06:50:11

Unknown

Thank you. Todorova.

00:06:50:13 - 00:07:13:05

Unknown

Good afternoon everybody. As Kyle mentioned, my name is Dan Gold, and I have the privilege of serving as the Rosalyn and Arthur Gilbert Foundation Chair Executive Director of The Hill UCLA at Hillel. We are honored every day to provide a home way from home for Jewish students and in fact, all Jewish Bruins on across and outside of this campus.

00:07:13:07 - 00:07:40:03

Unknown

And in honor of our namesake, Rabbi Hillel. Our mission is really twofold, and that is to promote, as strong as we can, a sense of Jewish unity. That is also why we are so proud of our long partnership with the Burkle Center. Doctor Pearl, and of course, the entire Pearl family on the Daniel Pearl Memorial Lecture, because Daniel showed that truth and justice matter.

00:07:40:04 - 00:08:07:15

Unknown

As a professional, Daniel was dedicated to seeking out the truth and as an individual, his story told the world that his own truth and his own Jewish identity was non-negotiable. And that is a message that speaks volumes to our students and all of UCLA today and every day. It is truly an honor to be here and be part of this program.

00:08:07:16 - 00:08:12:03

Unknown

Thank you very much. And it's my honor to have doctor Pearl come up and say a few words.

00:08:12:08 - 00:08:44:18

Unknown

And thank you for the introduction I see here. Many friends and colleagues and students and supporters and the entire L.A. community for which these annual event has become a cultural milestone for our shared ideas and our shared aspirations and our shared values.

00:08:44:19 - 00:09:27:04

Unknown

Our speaker today, Evan Jeffrey, share a profound personal bond with the spirit of this lecture. Two years ago, while still languishing in a Russian prison, Evan was awarded the Danube Pearl Award for courage and integrity in journalism from the Los Angeles Press Club. I like to believe first that the news of that award reached Evan in his cell and lifted his spirit, and according to our conversation outside, it did.

00:09:27:06 - 00:10:01:23

Unknown

And second, that the publicity and moral weight of the Daniel Pearl Award contributed, if only in a small way, to his release, making it possible for him to be with us today to recount his ordeal and celebrate his freedom as the only secular rabbi on this university. I would like to take the liberty of citing the Jewish prayer for the release of prisoners.

00:10:02:01 - 00:10:09:17

Unknown

Are you ready? Baruch atta adonai elohim.

00:10:09:18 - 00:10:18:15

Unknown

Let's see how big a man. Oh, man. You got it.

00:10:18:17 - 00:10:59:19

Unknown

As we draw pilots between nanny and Pearl and Evan, we must know that apart from both working for the worst journal and both becoming icon of press freedom and truthful reporting, there is a fundamental difference between the two of these. Danny was kidnaped by a nameless jihadist gang, while Evan was detained by a government that claimed legitimate membership in the international community.

00:10:59:21 - 00:11:13:23

Unknown

Of this difference. The message that Evans release sends to Vladimir Putin today is clear. Despite the appearance of hesitation and.

00:11:14:01 - 00:11:56:22

Unknown

Weakness in defending Ukraine and Israel against the barbaric souls that you perpetrate. A support the West has not surrendered its resolve to uphold the sacred satellite principles. The free will still hold the safety of journalists and their right to pursue truth as sanctuaries of civilized society. To amplify this message, I would like to read you a poem that I wrote on of one of them and one of the reversal for Danny's death.

00:11:57:00 - 00:12:10:15

Unknown

It is written about Karachi, Pakistan, but the resemblance to Moscow, Russia cannot be missed.

00:12:10:17 - 00:12:14:02

Unknown

The lion's den.

00:12:14:04 - 00:12:53:18

Unknown

Come off the road to lion's Den, south of midnight. Planet Earth, Karachi, Pakistan. Some call it nursery. Some name shed a compound shark. The newspapers read. I found it in my father. Holy book, the lion's den. The caption read. Can't touch the walls on which to eyes with thousands reams of old songs and fierce battles. Ancient war for seven days went on.

00:12:53:20 - 00:13:32:09

Unknown

Never in the field of human conflict has there been a clash. So total, so intense. In charge and aim between two cosmic forces, so compressed in space, so opposed in vision, so rooted in conviction. Across so close a distance. Before so many eyes. Never stood the son of Abel. So fiercely. To the face of Cain. And given to the teeth of claim a few is to the blind of self.

00:13:32:11 - 00:14:08:22

Unknown

It is now to the deafening streak of zeal alone. Never been the ray of light so deeply to the core of darkness, music to estrangement, principles to whims, reason to the impulse, mankind to Attila the Hun. Never was this saga chanted in more powerful a rhyme. My name is Daniel Pearl. Softly spoken from the dead. Softly from Karachi, Pakistan.

00:14:09:00 - 00:14:29:14

Unknown

And when Daya was lifted from the den. So the Bible tells us no one was founded. Because he stood his ground. Because he stood out ground. So the Bible tells us.

00:14:29:16 - 00:14:58:07

Unknown

Thank you Judea. It's now my honor to introduce this year's Daniel Pearl lecture. So in March 2023, a young Wall Street Journal reporter sat down with a source in a steakhouse in central Russia. Within moments, mass government officials blindfolded him, pulled him into an unmarked van, and he soon became the first Western journalist arrested in Russia on espionage charges since the Cold War.

00:14:58:09 - 00:15:27:00

Unknown

That reporter, of course, is our guest today, Evan Gershwin, born in new Jersey to Soviet emigres. Evan grew up speaking Russian at home. Since graduating from Bowdoin College, he's reported for The New York Times, The Moscow Times, The Economist, Foreign Policy Magazine, and, of course, The Wall Street Journal. In 2017, he moved to Moscow to spend more than five years chronicling Russia's slide back into authoritarianism and repression.

00:15:27:02 - 00:15:53:21

Unknown

His reporting grew out of his deep connection to the country that his family had left, and a determination to understand its people. As the rising power of Putin's regime threatened and transformed their way of life. Evans detention on false charges quickly became the story that consumed both the country, there and here. He spent nearly 500 days in a Moscow prison, and we're going to hear more about that momentarily.

00:15:53:23 - 00:16:19:11

Unknown

Freed in August of 2024, he was the central element in a swap of 24 prisoners, the largest east west exchange since the Cold War. Today, Evan is a foreign correspondent based in Berlin. He was a McDowell fellow and a Pulitzer Prize finalist in 2025. That's part of an investigative team for the Journal. His new book, This Cursed Beautiful Land A Russian American Story, was just released last month.

00:16:19:12 - 00:16:26:11

Unknown

And as I mentioned, there are copies outside. Please join me in welcoming to UCLA. Evan Gershwin's.

00:16:26:13 - 00:16:38:23

Unknown

It's an honor to be here. Thanks for having me. Everybody great. We're happy to have you the Pearl family. I want to start. There's so much to get into in your book and just generally about your life and reporting. But what I want to do, you got that?

00:16:39:00 - 00:16:55:17

Unknown

Here we go. What I want to do is just start by giving you a chance to tell a little bit of the story that you tell so beautifully in the book about how you ended up, first of all, in a prison in Russia. What got you there? What the experience was like. And then we'll talk more about the implications of that which are which are really manifold.

00:16:55:18 - 00:17:15:05

Unknown

But just tell us a bit about how you got there. Hi, everybody. You might have read about me in the news, but you probably don't know all the ins and outs of how that took place. I moved to Russia in late 2017. I started working as a journalist for the New York Times, as a news assistant in New York.

00:17:15:07 - 00:17:45:11

Unknown

And, you know, it's a very competitive environment. Hard to move up in the in the ranks. I worked as a stringer on weekends. If there was a shooting or a fire in Queens or Brooklyn. And you gather what's known as string and journalism to basically, you know, we've the yarn together, the story and you would go out, talk to the victim, you know, the, you know, maybe a victim's mother, a witnesses police spokesman send that to the Metro desk when it still existed at the New York Times.

00:17:45:11 - 00:18:03:20

Unknown

And then, you know, hope that eventually they might trust you to be a reporter. But it's hard. I grew up in a Russian speaking home, and a bunch of colleagues of mine who had worked in Moscow before said to me, well, why don't you look at that part of the world? You have Russian, you know, that sets you apart.

00:18:03:22 - 00:18:27:22

Unknown

Who had already sent his forces into Crimea by that point into eastern Ukraine. And Alex Navalny, the opposition leader, was riling up protests. So it was really, you know, it was an interesting time, so to speak, as Russia usually is an interesting time for a journalist perspective. And so I moved to work for the Moscow Times. They were looking for a young reporter.

00:18:28:00 - 00:18:58:03

Unknown

I applied, got the job and moved. And when I moved to Russia, the situation was essentially the foreign press and the Russian press were treated differently. The independent Russian press was already feeling some pressure on a famed investigative reporter was shot and killed in her stairwell on Putin's birthday in 2006. But the Russian press was generally allowed to report there was an independent TV channel there, independent newspapers.

00:18:58:09 - 00:19:20:02

Unknown

They were facing pressure. The foreign press, on the other hand, was allowed to report on anything. They were treated as kind of quasi diplomats, so to speak. The last time of foreign correspondent was taken on espionage. Trumped up espionage charges was at the end of the Soviet period in the 80s. And during, you know, there was first to ten years of an attempt at democracy.

00:19:20:02 - 00:19:47:03

Unknown

And then Putin came back, and the rest is history. But at that period, the foreign press was allowed to report on what it wanted. It was a kind of cover, in a way, for the Kremlin. You know, we're a normal country. We're a normal standing up. And also because the Russian press was addressing a Russian audience. So the Kremlin was more concerned with censoring what they were seeing and reading, versus the foreign press over the years.

00:19:47:05 - 00:20:16:08

Unknown

The repression, you know, ratcheted up Russian press, ended up with the full scale invasion completely fleeing the country. Ridiculous draconian censorship laws were passed in early 22 after the lightning strike on Kyiv failed. And it you know, it basically banned calling the war, which they were calling a special military operation. A war could land you in prison for up to ten years if you called it a war in a blog post or an article.

00:20:16:13 - 00:20:53:21

Unknown

So the Russian press fled and the foreign press was still we weren't completely sure. The New York Times paused the work of its bureau. My bureau chief stayed. Bloomberg News left, BBC stayed. It was a kind of debate among us whether these rules had, you know, these unspoken rules had shifted. And we even had a meeting with the Russian Foreign Ministry in which, after an hour of non answers, the spokeswoman finally told us, you know, you call in the West, men, women and women, men who can call this a war special military operation.

00:20:53:23 - 00:21:14:14

Unknown

So the ground was clearly shifting under our feet, but we were monitoring, watching. And over the months of the first year of the full scale invasion, 22 Russian journalists were tried in absentia, put on the wanted list, which we took as a signal. They're saying, you can't come back, you can't work here. The foreign journalists were not targeted.

00:21:14:15 - 00:21:37:11

Unknown

And so foreign journalists, some started, you know, some in states, some started coming back. I came back, the New York Times correspondent came back for them, The Guardian, the Financial Times, The Washington Post and others. And so we were working in a new environment where they also changed the rules, where we used to get visas in accreditations. That allowed us to work in the country for a year.

00:21:37:16 - 00:22:00:15

Unknown

That changed to three months. And so our read on that at the time was, okay, well, if they don't like our reporting, they'll let these documents run out, which some countries around the world do. I was reporting. You know, with time, more sensitive stories. So I reported a story by late 22 about how Putin was getting his information from the front and making decisions about the the war effort.

00:22:00:16 - 00:22:23:22

Unknown

I went to Pskov, which hosted the 76th Division of the Russian Airborne Forces, which had occupied much in Ukraine and committed a series of war crimes. And, you know, we you know, my visa was getting extended, my accreditation was getting extended. Other journalists were doing more and more sensitive things. At the end of the at the end of 2022, Putin addressed the FSB and Putin.

00:22:23:22 - 00:22:47:02

Unknown

Usually when he addresses the FSB, he gives them a kind of task. And the FSB is the domestic intelligence service, which was formerly known as the KGB, as some might remember in the Soviet period. In 2018, ahead of the World Cup. You know, the soccer World Cup in Russia. He told the FSB we need to catch more terrorists and extremists so they don't ruin the party.

00:22:47:02 - 00:23:19:22

Unknown

And the FSB ran around arresting teenagers, antifa and anarchists and claiming they were trying to topple the regime. Job done. We, you know, we fulfilled the commitment. At the end of 22, Putin told the FSB to catch. He said we need to do a better job catching traders, foreign spies and saboteurs. Three months later, I'm arrested. I was reporting a story that was basically trying to get a sense of how Russia was switching its economy to a military footing.

00:23:20:04 - 00:23:46:18

Unknown

Ukraine was telegraphing a large counteroffensive for the summer of 23. They were saying they were going to drive south, split Russian lines, divide Crimea from the east and hence drive Putin back to the negotiating table. The West was talking about it, sending weapons, saying this is going to go well. And nobody was really reporting on the fact that Russia was saying was building these defensive lines, switching its, you know, economy fully into military production.

00:23:46:20 - 00:24:10:16

Unknown

And we at the Journal felt like it was an important story to do. What we clearly got wrong was probably shouldn't have been doing that in the country. We can say that now in retrospect. So that's what I was doing at that point. I had a colleague of mine who had left Russia before the war, went before the full scope of Asian and but once Russia sent all its forces into Ukraine, it was all hands on deck.

00:24:10:17 - 00:24:34:04

Unknown

If you spoke Russian, if you had covered Ukraine, you had covered Russia, you know everybody. It was the biggest ground invasion in Europe since World War two. And so he had covered Russia's defense industry up until 21 for Reuters, then the Wall Street Journal. That was okay back then. By the time I guess, when Russia feels like it's at war, not just with Ukraine and what it calls the collective West.

00:24:34:09 - 00:24:55:12

Unknown

You know, they considered that too sensitive. But he had a source, in the Urals, that he had basically worked with before, who had, over the years had talked to not just the Journal, but the NPR. NPR, different Russian media outlets who suggested that he could meet and help out. And we were also trying to do different things.

00:24:55:12 - 00:25:19:04

Unknown

I was talking to Russian military analysts, Russian lawmakers, who were talking about how basically all university students were now being sent directly to military factors. That was the new main job. And there was this source. It turned out they were luring me into a trap. So they did it kind of creatively, not through a typical the Russian Soviet method of here, the flash drive, take the flash drive.

00:25:19:04 - 00:25:51:19

Unknown

But actually, this is a trusted source who was really disguised as an FSB agent. And so I end up getting arrested, as was mentioned earlier, already now receiving documents. So not quickly, directly to me, but already at the second meeting, he put papers into my hands. And at that point, masked agents. Run into the room. And so I explore in the book the story of, you know, the lead up and then the prison sentence and then a kind of investigation at the end of, you know, why?

00:25:51:20 - 00:26:17:21

Unknown

Maybe they chose me and how the swap worked and so on. Great. Say a little more about that. Why did they pick you? Were you just upon what was the so underlying reason? The other background that was going on at that point was this notion of hostage diplomacy. It was sort of this rising, method that authoritarian states were using to extract concessions from other governments.

00:26:18:02 - 00:26:46:06

Unknown

So Iran had done this to take hostages and then swap them back to other countries, sometimes for other prisoners, but sometimes for sanctions relief. In 2019, the US had requested Canada arrest as Chinese citizen on its behalf, and immediately China took two Canadian citizens, which was a, you know, a quick response. And eventually that they were swapped one for two.

00:26:46:08 - 00:27:08:21

Unknown

In 2019, Maria Butina, who was a foreign agent arrested in the US, a Russian foreign agent. And Putin was outraged about this case in late 2019, a state, you know, state propaganda reporter asked Putin. He says, why don't we do what China did? Why don't we just grab an American? And Putin answered, well, we can't just grab Americans off the street.

00:27:08:23 - 00:27:28:09

Unknown

They have to violate the law. But if they violate the law, of course, you know, we'll charge them. Two weeks later, Paul Whalen is arrested in a sting operation on espionage charges. And that kind of kicks off this era of hostage diplomacy between Russia and the United States. Some might be familiar with Trevor Reed, a marine who was arrested and swapped.

00:27:28:09 - 00:27:55:15

Unknown

Brittney Griner, the WNBA player. So we were reporting and covering all these cases as journalists, always with this vision, not vision, but debate of, well, taking a foreign correspondent is, you know, crossing a red line, going too far. Probably we were wrong. The, the at that point, what was going on was in late 22 and early 23, the Americans were asking the Russians.

00:27:55:17 - 00:28:15:06

Unknown

They were still trying to get Paul went out and the Russians were telling the Americans, well, Paul Whelan will only ever leave Russia if Vadim, who is an assassin sent to Germany on a mission, who killed a person in broad daylight and sentenced to life in prison in Germany, would leave Germany. And the were telling the Russians and negotiations.

00:28:15:06 - 00:28:36:12

Unknown

This is outlandish. What does Germany have to do with this? And then I'm arrested and the Russians come back with the two for one request. So I think the Russians were clearly looking for an American. Why they chose me? Well, also, Putin had given them an address thing. You need to catch a spy. But why? They choose me?

00:28:36:13 - 00:29:00:17

Unknown

I think there's not that many high profile Americans left. A lot of business leaders have left. Consultants upped. You know, journalists are quite easy to set up. And I think if you want a loud response and a big global outrage that raises the price of the hostage, a journalist is a good idea. Also, if you at this point think you're at war with the West, you sort of no longer care about your global standing.

00:29:00:19 - 00:29:25:14

Unknown

But also the Russian state does use journalists as cover for their spies. And we say we, you know, we don't and we say we haven't since 1977. There was the Church Committee investigations. And at that point, you know, the Congress found that a lot of, you know, journalists were actually being used as cover, and there was a band put in place and then codified as policy in 1997.

00:29:25:16 - 00:29:45:15

Unknown

But you can imagine a Russian counterintelligence officer perhaps not believing us. And so I think, you know, and I'm reporting on sensitive stories. They have a way to set me up. And I think all those things come together, whether they truly think I'm a spy or not. I don't think that matters truly, to them. I think it doesn't really matter.

00:29:45:17 - 00:30:07:19

Unknown

They have a way of paintings, picture and saying, well, look, we've caught one. So. But I don't think we have an answer, really. I don't think I would ever be able to say, this is the exact reason these people chose me. Great, great. One of the things there's so many rich things in your book, but one of the things that you, I think capture really well is the way that truth is so malleable in Russia today.

00:30:07:21 - 00:30:32:22

Unknown

And that issue of whether you are you recall many times talking with people, kind of casual conversations, even with FSB agents, where sometimes maybe it seems like they do believe it and sometimes maybe they don't. But like you say, it doesn't maybe matter at all. I want to get into Putin and Russian society in the war. But but first on your story, and you're really the heart of your book is your deal in prison?

00:30:33:02 - 00:30:54:23

Unknown

And another really fascinating part of the way you tell this story is how you depict prison as an essential, almost feature of of Russian life going back throughout Russian history that the prison occupies a special place in, in Russian. I don't know the Russian story in some ways. So many people have passed through prisons, and so you kind of recount some of that.

00:30:55:00 - 00:31:16:18

Unknown

So tell us a little bit about what that particular prison was like and why prison is so important in a way to understand in Russia. So the first prison I was taking to, I mean, one thing that's worth laying out for everybody was when I'm actually arrested, you know, I'm sitting with the sauce in the restaurant. I'm facing the dining hall.

00:31:16:19 - 00:31:36:05

Unknown

He's facing me. A masked men come in. And when they approached to arrest me, they announced that they were at the FSB. But the source, you know, I noticed, sliding back into the crowd untouched. Then I pulled on the ground, hooded, taken to a van. Obviously, fear is the one thing you're feeling at that point. They take the hood off.

00:31:36:06 - 00:32:04:08

Unknown

Ask if I worked for, I say, the Wall Street Journal. Hood goes on, midsection pummeled hood off. Who do you work for? I think, okay, they really think I'm a spy. They're going to be taking me to the station, interrogating me, torturing me, asking about the source. And I'd reported on stories like this before where even in a, you know, a simple case, they'll tie you up to a chair, put electrodes on your body, send shockwaves through you until you, you know, tell them what you want, whatever they want to hear.

00:32:04:10 - 00:32:28:14

Unknown

None of that happens. I'm just taken in, just handed my espionage charges and told I'm going to Moscow. And at that point, that moment of the source stepping away, it dawns on me, oh, it was a setup. For a specific reason. And I brought to Moscow to the fort of a prison, which is the most high security prison in Moscow in Russia.

00:32:28:16 - 00:32:51:10

Unknown

It was used by the KGB, now the FSB, for its most high profile prisoners. The FSB investigative unit is attached to the prison. So they'll bring you up for, you know, interrogations. In my case, they actually never really interrogated me. So it tells you how much they. I think they thought I was a spy or not. And I was, I, you know, I basically just hung out in it.

00:32:51:10 - 00:33:15:15

Unknown

It's a really it's tough conditions in the sense that it's small. It's very isolating. You're in a cell where with another person, there's a bed at the end, a bed on the on one wall, a desk on the other. And so only one adult person can go up and down at a time, only 6 or 7 paces in one direction.

00:33:15:17 - 00:33:37:03

Unknown

And you spend your entire time in that cell except for one walk, one hour a day, which is actually in another cell which is on the roof of the prison, which just doesn't have a ceiling but barbed wire. So that's your that's your life. And so it's very psychologically difficult. But a prison was actually modeled on Eastern State Penitentiary in Philadelphia.

00:33:37:05 - 00:34:01:08

Unknown

And it was this sort of idea of that isolating a person from society will help them, you know, change, reform in the US. We figured out that that's not the best way to hold people in Russia. They still do. And so that was the notion of, of that prison. And today it's actually the best run. Prison in, in Russia, in a way.

00:34:01:09 - 00:34:24:20

Unknown

So it's very difficult psychologically, but it's the cleanest. They treat you the most respectfully, the, the, you know, all these Ukrainian civilians and POW who we read about being tortured, that's happening in the South. So they'll be held in occupied territory in southern Russia, deprived of food, water, beaten, and then brought up to 130, broken up again. The Russian state is very calculating.

00:34:24:20 - 00:34:45:06

Unknown

That doesn't happen to me. But prison occupies a centralized. Just to clarify, it doesn't happen to you because you're too valuable as a I think I think I'm very valuable as a chip to trade the, you know, the we have a TV. I have a TV in my cell the second night in prison. Turn on the news and on one talk show host is saying, you know, a cynical as it sounds.

00:34:45:08 - 00:35:04:15

Unknown

We have replenished our exchange fund, and the exchange fund is the term the Russians used for, you know, as part of hostage diplomacy of people, foreigners that keep to, to be traded, but also, as you had mentioned, had been set out loud. A few times. You know, before the US ambassador visited, the warden would check in on me, ask how I'm doing.

00:35:04:16 - 00:35:26:03

Unknown

Do I have any complaints? My mattress was thicker than my cellmates. You know, it was kind of an open, an open secret. But to your to your other. You know, your question about prison playing the central role in Russian society? It's been an authoritarian government for as long as, you know, Russians can remember other than a few years in the 90s.

00:35:26:05 - 00:35:49:23

Unknown

And so opposition means you end up in prison. And and so there's this kind of notion in Russian society. Some of it, I think, has to do with Christianity and this notion of suffering. Breeds better character. You go back to Dostoevsky and Tolstoy writing about this. But I think another part is just simply if you oppose the state, you end up in prison.

00:35:49:23 - 00:36:30:19

Unknown

That's something worthy. And so Navalny wrote about this in his memoirs. He ended up being killed in prison. But Tolstoy, in a novel called resurrection, writes about this. Back in the 19th century, one of the characters muses out loud that the only correct place for a good person in Russia today, well, 19th century, was prison. So so I another kind of cope, you know, one coping mechanism I had was I turned to Russian literature and Gulag memoirs and Tsarist era memoirs about sort of, you know, kind of as like a manual, how to go through this experience.

00:36:30:21 - 00:36:56:02

Unknown

It was striking how much you read in prison and the access the books you had access to actually were pretty sophisticated, pretty good books. So I think prisoners all around the world read a lot. You don't have that much to do. You're very isolated. Reading is this kind of psychedelic experience almost, because you have almost, you know, even though we had a TV, it's not like you're watching it all the time and you don't see the world around you.

00:36:56:02 - 00:37:24:09

Unknown

So when you read, you're so invested in it. And other people are, you know, think their coping mechanisms. While I'm here, I need to learn something. So they're studying. But, yeah, the library, the Fort DeVoe is very rich, diverse. We had 9000 titles and everything from Soviet dissidents, Ukrainian authors to Michelle Obama's autobiography. And I expressed surprise when my Russian lawyers first visited me.

00:37:24:10 - 00:37:40:01

Unknown

And, you know, they kind of didn't get it, you know, was pushing them. They said, well, a lot of smart people have been in this present, and some people here might know was there. And Ginsburg, who wrote a brilliant Gulag memoir, was there. You know, they left their books behind. And I, you know, it was the question of access.

00:37:40:02 - 00:38:05:14

Unknown

And halfway through my time there, they started calling books by kind of contemporary traders, Mikhail Ziggurat. If anybody's read all the Kremlin's men and anybody's considered enemy of the state, Ukrainian authors, those were lost from the library. So I think, you know, one thing with Russia is it's always trying to be China but not keeping up. And I think it's getting better and better and better, getting more control over its internet.

00:38:05:15 - 00:38:31:18

Unknown

And, you know, also censorship. And so I think it was sort of it took it time. But before, you know, before the war, clearly all that stuff was available. So let's talk about the war a little bit. So you were you were reporting on the war extensively. That was partly why you were set up in that way. And I guess I'm curious about your perspective on the war has been a disaster for Ukraine most of all, but for Russia as well, for the Russian people, for the Russian state.

00:38:31:18 - 00:38:50:07

Unknown

Putin, as you said, thought it was going to be quick. And there's lots of evidence that that's true and it's obviously not quick. Many years on, we thought it was going to be we told the Ukrainians to prepare for partizan warfare. So everybody thought it was going to be quick. That's one thing to say. So but now we're many years into it and it's it's you know, it's not it's not changing that much.

00:38:50:09 - 00:39:09:17

Unknown

It's sort of a stasis in some ways. How do you see the fact of that? How do you explain Putin's intransigence? Do you think there's any backing down that's possible? Where do you see the trajectory going? I think there's two things going on. One thing I think Putin is a really, really, really stubborn person. And you hear this.

00:39:09:19 - 00:39:28:22

Unknown

You know, I've spoken with his aides over the years who wanted you ever met him? I've never met him. I've seen him in person. I've never, never met him. He's very careful with who he allows interviews to. They're very selective, usually for a specific reason. He gave an interview to the Financial Times at a moment where they really cared to project.

00:39:29:00 - 00:39:48:04

Unknown

Their economy was doing fine. While I was in prison, they gave an interview. He gave an interview to Tucker Carlson, who they interviewed would be more to, you know, so they're very calculating that way as well. Just to say Tara Carlson brought you up and I thanked him after, actually, for bringing me up. So whatever. The politics still deserved my things.

00:39:48:06 - 00:40:07:03

Unknown

But the, Putin is known, you know, from people who know him to be incredibly stubborn. Somebody, you know, he used to be this kind of street brawler kit kid and would be the first to get in a fight, and he would lose. And then as the years went by, he got better and better and better and would win fights.

00:40:07:05 - 00:40:28:21

Unknown

He never said sorry in an argument. So one aide. I know who worked for him in the first term ended up leaving over disagreements, political disagreements, that, you know, basically didn't turn out who he thought he would be. And they had an argument back then. They finally met up ten years later, were going over, you know, old histories.

00:40:28:21 - 00:40:48:00

Unknown

And Putin said, you know, you were wrong about this. And the aid was like, what? You know, he couldn't remember. And so Putin's memory is also very I think, you know, he's a we can kind of imagine this kind of person. And I think he's very dug in and he's very much thinking about his place in the pantheon of Russian history.

00:40:48:01 - 00:41:13:10

Unknown

He muses about this out loud. He's been in power for 26 years at this point. He talks about Catherine the Great, expanding Russian territory, about Crimea being the crown jewel, the Russian Empire. And I think he's so far in, you know, it would be catastrophic to his self-image to accept that they've lost. And so I think it's sort of to get what's the fallacy about continuing and continuing?

00:41:13:10 - 00:41:32:10

Unknown

I think we're in a bit of that stage. And, you know, I think there's evidence of that too, because the US, you know, and the Trump administration essentially offered him the biggest win he could have at the Alaska summit last year. You know, except in Crimea, getting the Donbas, which he wants so badly, he still didn't accept that.

00:41:32:12 - 00:41:52:17

Unknown

So it's hard it seems really difficult to find him some sort of off ramp that would make it a palatable win at home. And so I am, you know, worried that it's not going to end so quickly because he's so it doesn't matter the casualties, the effect on his own economy and, you know, the development of his own country.

00:41:52:19 - 00:42:16:23

Unknown

I mean, we're obviously in an era of strong man and authoritarian leadership around the world are on the rise. But, you know, he is striking for a lot of reasons. You mentioned 26 years. That's a really long time. But you also talked about you talk about in the book quite a bit how, you know, Russia has always you mentioned the collective West, that phrase, that idea of how they see they see their interest in the West and Russia.

00:42:16:23 - 00:42:42:15

Unknown

I'm not a Russia expert, but, you know, even I know that Russia has oscillated between wanting to be accepted or part of the West, and then sometimes rejecting and openly kind of criticizing the West as decadent in some way. So do you see him as kind of cause or consequence? Is he leading this late, latest unfortunate turn from our perspective, right from most Russians perspective, or is he a consequence of something deeper in Russia?

00:42:42:16 - 00:43:00:04

Unknown

So I think he doesn't come out of a vacuum. He's from a generation that felt like they didn't lose the Cold War, that they were tied and they felt, I mean, that's how they feel. That's how they that's how Yeltsin spoke about it with Clinton. If you go back to the old in the 90s discussions and he, you know, Yeltsin would tell Clinton, you're being very arrogant.

00:43:00:04 - 00:43:19:00

Unknown

You're not, you know, considering our interest. Why are, you know, why is NATO expanding if we put our, you know, put our arms down, right? So they that's how they felt. It's it is funny to us, but that is the and so Putin felt like, you know, and then you get into the 90s where they felt like, you know, capitalism and democracy wasn't what we told them it would be.

00:43:19:00 - 00:43:41:04

Unknown

And they ended up defaulting in 98. Horrible financial crisis. Oligarchs collecting all the resources because there was this horrible shift. And so there was a lot of really disappointed and spiteful people. There was also people who felt like, you know, their empire had collapsed and they wanted to gather those lands again. So he's not the only one.

00:43:41:06 - 00:44:12:16

Unknown

But he took Russia under his grip really quickly. He put his friends in charge. He started clamping down on the free press, and he sort of opposition really early on. And I think his character is to get into a fight. And he gets into those fights. And I do think it's an open question. If it was somebody else, whether they would take measures as far as bombing Georgia or, you know, trying to take over Ukraine, or now actually, you know, kinetic action is happening and in Europe.

00:44:12:18 - 00:44:30:14

Unknown

And so I think that is it's not it's not guarantee that any Russian leader would come in and that would happen. So I think it's not you know, it's a it's a bit of both. He's not out of a vacuum, but he's the one who's taking the country under his control and he's making these decisions. You mentioned fighting a couple of times.

00:44:30:14 - 00:44:49:07

Unknown

One of the things that I think you quote him as saying, but also your cellmate, is that in a fight you always hit first. And that instinct to hit first. If a fight is even on the horizon in some way? Yeah. So Putin said this really early on about judo. That he got into, you know, to get better at fighting.

00:44:49:07 - 00:45:14:15

Unknown

He was losing. He got really into judo and started, you know, becoming quite good at grappling. And he said, basically, if you're going to already get into a fight hits so hard that your opponent won't get up. And one of my cellmates was this very kind of also street brawler kid and very smart talking, very resourceful. Thought crime was okay in a country where corruption was rife.

00:45:14:17 - 00:45:30:14

Unknown

He was in on real charges. And, yeah, I thought in the book I draw this parallel. I thought he gave some insight into how things. Because he he told me, you know, you're going to get to the penal colony. There might be people who aren't as nice to you there. You know, once you're convicted, if you see somebody approaching you.

00:45:30:20 - 00:45:48:16

Unknown

I mean, he gave this advice, which I did not take and I never ended up in a penal colony, was put a bar of soap in a sock and swing it first so the person doesn't get up. And so that's a very and if you read Putin that way and you're thinking about a growing confrontation, he hits first.

00:45:48:18 - 00:46:12:06

Unknown

And I think that's partly how he looked at Ukraine. You know, he saw that Ukraine after 2014 was being more and more supported by us, was getting stronger militarily. The CIA, as we know, was much more involved in its military planning, intelligence gathering. And I think he saw a window closing. And so he had first, do you think you mentioned the NATO expansion and Yeltsin?

00:46:12:08 - 00:46:30:08

Unknown

So going back to that era, but up until today, was it a mistake to expand eastward? And in addition, should we have expanded all the way to Ukraine? It depends who you listen to. The French and the Germans will tell you that it was a mistake. Look, we provoked them. The bolts, the poles and the Ukrainians will say this is exactly why we needed it.

00:46:30:10 - 00:46:51:15

Unknown

And I don't think NATO on its own is such an irritant because I think, you know, Moscow is still a kind of it's an empire. And it's been trying to expand its borders as long as it's existed. And there's been, you know, there's a blip in history where it tried to be the independent Russian Federation, moderate its, you know, modeled its constitution on ours, was trying to be a country of federated states.

00:46:51:15 - 00:47:15:03

Unknown

But unfortunately, a former KGB officer got into power and expanded the power of the security service. And we are, we are. So I you know, I don't want to be the arbiter of that question and upset. A bunch of countries that have lived around the Russian border for many, many years, have been occupied by Russia for many, many years and are facing current attempts at reoccupation.

00:47:15:05 - 00:47:32:05

Unknown

But it's it is I mean, I think it's much more complex than one way or the other. I do think, personally, that we might have not been as arrogant with them. I do think we might have tried to have it be much more of a conversation in the 90s. It seemed to be much more. When you go back to these tapes, they're all public.

00:47:32:06 - 00:47:51:07

Unknown

The the Clinton libraries made them public. And you see these conversations in 95, in the Kremlin in 98, Yeltsin's complaining to Clinton and Clinton just saying, look, we don't have a choice. You know, just kind of brushing aside, what is he complaining about that you know, he's he's saying, why do these countries feel like we're a threat? We're telling them we want we don't want to be a threat.

00:47:51:07 - 00:48:09:14

Unknown

And Clinton actually has a good point. He says, we're not worried about your government. We're worried about a government that might come, which did come after. Right? So again, it's much more complex than saying one was right or wrong. Well, it's also history. I mean, Russia has a long history of being very aggressive. Yes, exactly. Yeah. And so countries that have had faced that aggression are worried about what might happen.

00:48:09:14 - 00:48:35:12

Unknown

And they'll say they're right. Right. Yeah. Okay. One last question for me. And then I'm going to open it up to everyone. So so now you're you're out. You're living in Berlin. You still have, I guess, an interest in Russia. Of course. So I'm just wondering how you see Russia today, what changed and how you view it. It hasn't really changed because when I moved there, the the logic of that regime was going in a certain direction.

00:48:35:12 - 00:48:56:14

Unknown

And then when I arrived, you know, most of the country had tapped out politically trying to live their lives or what's going on, understanding they can't affect much, being really depressed, that this is now the state of affairs. So that was late 2017 to a lot of Americans. Exactly. And they felt like, you know, there's nothing they can do.

00:48:56:16 - 00:49:22:07

Unknown

Though they, you know, Russians my age would tell me, what are you guys worried about in the US with Trump, it was 2017. You guys have institutions we don't well, those institutions can can start crumbling, but they they, you know, and so in a way, the logic hasn't changed, has just gotten a lot, a lot, a lot worse, obviously much more repressive, much more aggressive.

00:49:22:09 - 00:49:40:22

Unknown

And so my feelings about the play is haven't exactly changed, because when I was arrested, the feeling was I've described it as shock but not surprise. It was something we were debating amongst ourselves as a possibility. We thought, I mean, we put the percentage of really small, but it's not like we didn't think, you know, we didn't come out of the blue.

00:49:40:22 - 00:49:59:05

Unknown

And I woke up and said, oh my God, Vladimir Putin's regime is really bad, actually. But, you know, it's still I grew up in a Russian speaking family. You know, much of my family's from there. I spent some of the best years of my life there and my my girlfriend there, some of my best friends there. I love Russian food and culture.

00:49:59:05 - 00:50:20:06

Unknown

And I don't think a country is only, you know, it's, let's say, military actions or politics or, you know, there's much more to it. And I think it is complex and that one day there'll be another opportunity for Russia to try one more try being a liberal democracy. Let's see. Probably not tomorrow. Well, that comes through in your book.

00:50:20:07 - 00:50:38:20

Unknown

I mean, you your subtitle is A Russian American Story. Yeah. So that really comes through your your childhood affection for Russian culture, your experiences and going to Brighton Beach and places like that. But then obviously seeing the real Russia was a bit different. Yeah. Okay. So we always like to start with questions from students in the room.

00:50:38:22 - 00:50:55:23

Unknown

So hold your hand up high. If you have a question, I'm going to give the first. Yeah. You're in the back. Go ahead. Just wait for the mic. And remember you're not going to get to grab that mic just. Okay. Sorry. I have been my name is don't. I'm a law student here at UCLA. I've spent time in Russia.

00:50:56:00 - 00:51:30:14

Unknown

I am worried about hostage diplomacy because clearly it works. I'm wondering what you would say to, I don't know, us politicians, legislators or just what? How do you think we can stop the cycle of hostage diplomacy? Do you think there's any way forward there? When I got out. So it was two years ago. I was told there was a debate in multiple countries, and they were trying to push forward this idea of a kind of article five.

00:51:30:16 - 00:51:57:20

Unknown

So article five is the article in NATO that says if one member is attacked, all the members come to its defense. And there was this idea, I think ten countries at that point had signed on, at least in discussions of if a citizen, if a citizen of one of those countries is wrongfully detained by an authoritarian state that is practicing hostage diplomacy, there is an automatic response of all the members to impose sanctions or some penalties or whatever it is.

00:51:57:22 - 00:52:31:01

Unknown

I haven't seen progress in that, and I haven't seen news about that. But I do think that's that's an interesting idea. Because you're right. I mean, in my swap, Russia in the sense got away with it. They got what they wanted and there were no penalties imposed. Yeah. The, and it's, you know, it's an age old debate in our societies about whether we should negotiate with hostage takers or sometimes they're, as was said earlier, you know, a gang taking somebody, or it can be a nation state and accepted nation state.

00:52:31:03 - 00:52:48:11

Unknown

I found that idea really interesting, and I'd be curious to see if that keeps developing. But it is being discussed among Western countries because, yeah, we keep facing it more and more. I would just add, I think this is an example where there are norms of behavior that in the past this wasn't so common, it's not unknown, but it wasn't so common.

00:52:48:11 - 00:53:10:12

Unknown

And you could analogize it a little bit to the issue of the Strait of Hormuz today. Right. So there are rules in that case, but also norms about being able to just seize or mine harbors and passageways. And those are breaking down when they break down. Then we have to come to some new equilibrium. So at one point to make is that when I was taking the Americans, you know, I mean, they couldn't do anything, right.

00:53:10:13 - 00:53:29:05

Unknown

Russia is a big power. And it was going to hold me no matter what. But they sent a message saying, this is a red line you've really crossed. Like, you know, to us this is beyond the pale, right? We you know, in all the other cases we can debate it, but this is just so far gone. So then, yeah, you have to start, you know, it's a new it's a new story.

00:53:29:05 - 00:53:39:15

Unknown

And that happened in 23. We're in 26. So it's a debate. Other students. Yeah. Go ahead.

00:53:39:17 - 00:54:03:20

Unknown

Mr.. Mr.. Russell, thank you so much for being here and for moderating. My name is David. I'm a second year law school student. Sorry, second year MBA student. Well, welcome to our law school colleague. Sorry. Obviously, you mentioned that you're now reporting from Berlin. I'm curious, a do you believe do your opinions believe that they can credibly deter or stop Russia without American support?

00:54:03:20 - 00:54:29:17

Unknown

And do you believe that as well? I mean, the Baltics sure. Think they can or at least are going ahead and and planning to they are they moved into active defense this week, which is the sort of notion of if you put your you place your lines much closer to the border in the event to tell the, you know, your enemy you're going to face, you know.

00:54:29:19 - 00:54:56:19

Unknown

Yeah, a quick hit, basically. But I don't know, it's hard for me to imagine because, you know, Russia as a military power has learned a lot on the battlefield. Right? It's a sort of loop with both Ukraine and Russia learning a lot in terms of modern drone warfare. Obviously in the US and Ukraine had a joint drone exercise recently, and the Ukrainian unit absolutely wiped out the American unit in that exercise.

00:54:57:00 - 00:55:29:18

Unknown

It was embarrassing to the U.S. military. So but flip that that the Russians to. Right. And so, the kind of military power and intelligence power that the US has is overwhelming compared to, what the Europeans have. But I don't think that the Russians are going to do. You know, we see it already. It's a kind of growing action, in Europe, you know, they're hitting, trying to hit terminals from where shipments go to Ukraine or airports that ship to Ukraine.

00:55:29:22 - 00:55:58:14

Unknown

And any, you know, these war games that are done, these exercises to see try to game out how an invasion might happen. Everyone seems to say that what the Russians would do would be, you know, they keep raising the levels so as to not, trigger article five, to not put us at this question of if they do something massive, it might, you know, may be really difficult for us to not all agree to defend whichever country's attacked, but if they keep rising the temperature.

00:55:58:14 - 00:56:23:04

Unknown

And so I think that's actually much more difficult and a leak lead to continue squabbling. And might not make it so clear to us what we should do. I mean, if we remember how they started, you know, Crimea, it was putting unmarked forces on the ground and saying, well, they're not ours. So it's not always such a, a massive shock nor invasion like it was in February 22nd.

00:56:23:06 - 00:56:43:23

Unknown

Sometimes it's more they call it hybrid, but it's beyond hybrid at this point. But it's smaller, you know, gray zone sometimes. Okay. So I'll open it up generally to the audience. So I see quite a few hands up. Let's, let's go over here. Let's go to the front side of the room.

00:56:44:01 - 00:56:55:06

Unknown

I think you put your hand back up. Hold it up. Just wait for the microphone. Yeah, so she can find you. Smart.

00:56:55:08 - 00:57:04:08

Unknown

I might not be on you all.

00:57:04:08 - 00:57:39:04

Unknown

Really love. I was just wondering if. So. The question was, you know, this comparison of Russia to China and China not having a leader for as long as Putin has had, you know, has been around she Jinping seems pretty intent to stick around for 26 years, though. Right. And I and they had this amazing conversation that was a mic overheard of them talking about longevity and genetics, how they can live forever.

00:57:39:06 - 00:58:00:16

Unknown

So 50 years, 150 years. And actually, Putin's one of his daughters. Works at a a bio lab that works on longevity and this kind of thing. And so they're deeply obsessed with this idea. Putin does not have a succession plan. And even if he does, he he never tells even his closest aides with what he's planning.

00:58:00:18 - 00:58:27:19

Unknown

And so I think he'll be around until either he dies or is deposed forcibly. And that's that's it. Okay. I think we have time for maybe one more. I feel like the Abe system is right on the edge of collapse. So let's go in the back right there. Go ahead. Final question. Hi there. I was wondering if you could tell us a bit more about your your your cellmates.

00:58:27:19 - 00:58:50:22

Unknown

What were they like? Did you become friends with them? Did you trust them? So I assumed and my lawyers to that the summit I would have would be, you know, or listening or snitching or whatever. But when you're in this tiny space, it's just the two of you. That's one also had nothing to say. So the whole story was out there.

00:58:51:02 - 00:59:08:05

Unknown

I'm reporting on a sense of story. Probably a little too risky. They framed me as a spy. You know, I don't have any networks to give up. I don't have any. You know, it's not like I was saying, you know, you know, not pleading guilty because I was actually guilty. You know, and so, you know, very quickly, you just kind of moved beyond all that, I think.

00:59:08:06 - 00:59:27:07

Unknown

And you, you know, and you, find ways to, to be friends, I guess. I mean, we, I got along with all of my cellmates. I think one thing that really helped me. In this situation, compared to maybe other Americans who ended up in situations like this, is I speak Russian, but also grew up in a Russian speaking home.

00:59:27:09 - 00:59:45:10

Unknown

I get the humor, I get the culture. We have similar ways into talking about pop culture. I mean, on the one hand, I grew up on Soviet cartoons and movies like they did, but also when Russia became independent, 91 American shows came in. So, you know, we're around the same age they grew up on SpongeBob, just like I did.

00:59:45:12 - 01:00:10:11

Unknown

And and, you know, and you, that's all you have to to socialize it. And so I actually yeah, I mean, I don't know if friendship is the right word, but close companionship would be the term I would use. I will say there's a terrific the book covers this in depth, but there's a nice excerpt, I guess, in The New Yorker where you directly address some of these issues about your experiences with them.

01:00:10:11 - 01:00:29:01

Unknown

And and just to say also that it's a composite, right, that you tell. So I had in one prison multiple cellmates, but they're still in prison. So I didn't want to put them at risk. And but it was easy as a journalist to make them a composite because they actually were very similar, similar backgrounds, similar crimes. And so that wasn't actually difficult to do.

01:00:29:01 - 01:00:47:08

Unknown

So composite character, but truly sticks to reality. The second prison, I had one cellmate and he's real because one he asked to be in the book. But he also ended up leaving prison to go fight in the war in Ukraine and died. And so I felt like, it's okay, you know, there's nothing to protect him from at this point.

01:00:47:08 - 01:00:54:02

Unknown

But he did ask. He wanted to be in the book. You know. Great. Evan, thank you so much. Thank you. Thanks, everybody, for coming.